Minimum Temperature Errors on Resource Page

[epiphyte]

There are three resources...Cool/Intermediate/Warm Growing Orchids For The Beginner...that incorrectly state minimum temperatures for many of the listed orchids. The resources can be found on the Orchid Resources Page under the Culture Specific section.

In my post Miltonia flavescens in Snow I wrote..."Many epiphytic orchids are considerably more eurythermal than most orchid hobbyists realize." Perhaps part of the reason that most orchid hobbyists are unaware of actual temperature ranges is due to misinformation from the AOS.

In addition to being wildly inaccurate...it's detrimental to our hobby if orchids are maligned as being less hardy than they actually are. Doing so narrows the pool of possible growers. The more hardy that orchids are...the greater the amount of people that can grow them without having to adjust their existing conditions. Having to artificially control temperature is a significant barrier of entry for our hobby.

I'm guessing that the AOS just based the minimum temperatures on popular literature which was written by greenhouse growers who either wrote their literature with other greenhouse growers in mind... or really have no clue as to the actual temperature ranges that orchids are capable of tolerating. My recommendation is to base the minimum temperatures on a survey of growers (Paul Gripp, Andy Phillips, Don Brown, etc.) who do have a good idea of the minimum temperatures that the listed orchids are capable of tolerating.

I only have a few years of outdoor growing experience but the following orchids that are listed in the AOS resources had no problem with this past winter's low of 33F.

On the Cool Page (listed as 50°F Minimum Temperature)

Coleogyne cristata
Coelogyne mooreana
Cymbidium
Prosthechea cochleata
Laelia anceps
Laelia autumnalis
Rhynchostele bictoniensis
Oncidium tigrinum

On the Intermediate Page (listed as 55F Minimum Temperature)

Cattleya loddigesii
Cattleya purpurata
Dendrobium chrysotoxum
Dendrobium moschatum
Dendrobium nobile
Myrmecophila tibicinis

On the Warm Page (listed as 65F Minimum Temperature)

Vanda coerulea
Vanda tricolor

It would probably be helpful to include a sentence or two mentioning that epiphytic orchids generally prefer being drier at the lower end of their temperature range and moister at the upper end of their temperature range.

On a side note...might want to consider the possibility of creating a database of orchid name pronunciation audio files. That way a "listen" icon can be placed next to each orchid name...which when clicked will play the audio file for that orchid.

[EdM-in-TN]

Epiphyte, perhaps you can do some much needed research on the actual temperature ranges of all orchids and publish them. That would be a tremendous resource for others. That way, people would know who to blame when their Cologyne cristata drops all its flower buds at 35°F (like mine did) when you told them it was OK at 33°F. Or the Vanda tricolor develops brown rot at 40°F (like mine did at 48°F). Kidding aside, its not as easy as it sounds.

We all have different experiences with our plants, and the temperatures provided are typically taken from recorded temperatures where the plants actually occur...such as found in the Baker Culture website. There is a big difference between temperatures a plant is comfortable in and the temperature extremes that an occasional individual plant can withstand. Many growers culture their plants for shows and displays and the extremes in culture such as temperatures can easily damage the look and blooming of some plants even though they may survive.

[epiphyte]

I would definitely love to do research on the actual temperature ranges of all orchids. Just need a sponsor to help pay for the orchids and to provide a nice plot of land to hold them all.

I try to do my part within my means...but I think the AOS..."Education, Conservation, Research"...should really be shouldering some weight in making orchids more accessible to more people. They should be leading by example in cultivating a culture of experimentation. They have the orchids and the land...it's just a matter of putting the orchids outside and documenting the temperature ranges that they tolerate. At the very least they shouldn't be making orchids less accessible by providing misleading minimum temperatures.

Well...misleading for people who are just interested in growing orchids. By the time an orchid grower cares what FCC stands for...they should already be quite aware of the distinction between tolerable temperatures and show temperatures. While people who show orchids are a significant part of the orchid world...they are greatly outnumbered by people who are just interested in growing orchids. As such it would be enlightening to compare the resources the AOS dedicates to orchid showing/judging to the resources the AOS dedicates to researching the actual temperature ranges of orchids...which determines who can grow the orchids in the first place. My guess is that the resources are heavy on the showing/judging side of things.

Regarding who holds responsibility if an orchid kicks the bucket because of cold temperatures...well...given the variation within species and the variation between growing techniques...the bottom line is that the less documentation a grower basis their decisions on...the greater the risk they take. That's why the temperature range of an orchid should be established by a survey of growers who are capable of determining, with some degree of confidence, how significant a factor the cold (or heat) was in contributing to an orchid's demise.

The orchid culture website is an excellent source of actual temperature ranges. The only drawback is that the temperature ranges are just provided for a single location in an orchid's distribution range. Generally speaking, the greater an orchid's elevation/latitude range...the greater its temperature range.

[EdM-in-TN]

Good thoughts. However, most of the meaningful research work done on orchids in the vein that you are talking about was accomplished by individuals all on their own with no funding, nothing but their own lifelong dedication and careful notetaking. Grants are nice for funding certain things but no institution that I know of would fund the task you speak of while there are hundreds or perhaps thousands of people out there doing it for free. You simply need to either do it yourself at your own expense or find a like-minded person willing to do it that needs some assistance focusing on the project. I'm serious. I personally know a number of PhDs that work and teach at universities who get paid for one thing, while they love another, spending their spare time and money traveling, finding and raising plants, careful notetaking, and writing articles. They do it out of their own personal curiosity. No one is offering them grants or supporting them with money or material goods. It takes someone exactly like you, to drop what they are doing, and dedicate their life to a such a project. Some of the most famous names in orchid growing and research who authored important books started out with an idea just like you have.

Outside of Hawaii, there are only partial areas of two States in the USA, southern Florida and coastal southern California where orchid growers can expect to be able to grow a number of types of tropical orchids outdoors year round with little effort. A relatively small number of people out of all those who grow orchids working with a limited number of plants. Even so, there are many dedicated people in these areas that grow a surprizing variety of plants. Sometimes they write articles for the AOS magazine, most probably do not. Yet, they exist, and I would venture that they have already spent many many years and tears accomplishing all of the studies you are interested in. Perhaps all you would need to do is visit all of the orchid societies in these areas and interview these people and glean all of the cultural information you seek, and then write your book.

If you look on-line, or in the AOS affiliated society list, I know you will find an Orchid Species Society in southern California and another one in south Florida.

Good luck!

[Graphicgreg]

I think your argument that by the AOS not stating actual temperatures certain orchids have been known to withstand, they are keeping people away from the hobby is quite a stretch. More likely, the exact opposite is true. And that is why conservative temperature ranges are generally stated in hobby litereature. There are far too many variables that affect the cold tolerance of orchids to tell beginners that with certainty, they can grow Cattleya loddigesii down to 33° F. You should have reached this conclusion in your few short years of experimentation. That Cattleya grown under 2000 fc of light and overfertilized will be far less able to withstand cold temperatures than that the same plant grown lean under 3500 fc. If the AOS were to suggest that growers along the gulf coast did not need greenhouses by stating actual temperatures that certain epiphytic orchids have been known to survive, it would certainly result in many disappointed orchidists. As EdM stated, most orchid growers try to grow their plants to their fullest potential, so they don't subject them to temperature extremes. They look and grow better when not. Our vandas have been left out for several winters with temps into the 30's for numerous nights. And that is why the plants look so bad! Anyway, if you are serious about seeing the AOS do such research, this forum is probably not the proper channel. You would be better off submitting your suggestion directly to the Chair of the Research Committee. You can find her e-mail address on the "Contact" page. And if you are REALLY dedicated to seeing this happen, as you said in your statement, "I would definitely love to do research on the actual temperature ranges of all orchids", there is a grant application at the bottom of this page.

How is that map project going?

[epiphyte]

What's interesting to try and understand is why there is considerably more accurate minimum temperature information for bromeliads than for orchids...

http://fcbs.org/articles/cold_sensit...bromeliads.htm
http://www.sfbromeliad.org/slideshow/hardybroms.html

Is is because bromeliad growers have been growing bromeliads longer than orchid growers have been growing orchids? Is it because more bromeliad growers are interested in knowing the actual cold tolerances of bromeliads than orchid growers are in knowing the actual cold tolerances of orchids? Is it because there are more species of hardy epiphytic bromeliads than there are species of hardy epiphytic orchids? Is it because bromeliad growers care less about the appearance of their bromeliads than orchid growers care about the appearance of their orchids? Is it because there are more highly motivated individuals within the bromeliad societies than there are within the orchid societies? Is it because the AOS is in cahoots with greenhouse manufactures and suppliers? Is it because the AOS's obsession with showing and judging orchids has resulted in a strong bias towards greenhouse growers which has led to in the unfortunately widespread common misconception that a greenhouse is required to successfully grow epiphytic orchids anywhere in the US except for Hawaii and Southern Florida? Orchids outdoors in coastal Southern California gardens are so very much the exception rather than the rule that it can only reflect the widespread misconception that few orchids are tolerant of outdoor conditions.

Perhaps the last explanation can be supported by the AOS's listing of misleading minimum temperatures, the AOS forum's glaring lack of a category for growing orchids outdoors and the single paragraph that the AOS dedicates to the subject of growing orchids outdoors. Actually, that paragraph does more harm than good in that it helps to perpetuate the common misconception that only cymbidiums are suitable for growing outdoors year around in frost free areas.

While an AOS grant would be nice...it would be rather strange if the AOS would allocate money to the study of orchid temperature tolerance when it does not have the funds to keep its gardens open to the public.

The goal of this thread is really not to motivate the AOS to lead the way in documenting orchid temperature tolerance...that would be a very impressive giant step...I am just looking for the AOS to take a tiny baby step in correcting the misleading minimum temperature that is listed on the documents found on the resources page.

Speaking of motivating the AOS...it would be very useful if the AOS were to replace that lousy single paragraph on growing orchids outdoors with the more informative 1987 AOS article written by Susan M. Stephenson..."Growing Orchids Outdoors in Southern California". Not sure if you were aware but there is no need for it to be digitized as I already digitized it in order to help demonstrate to the AOS how simple it is to digitize out of print articles.

You could place a google ad on that webpage and I will link to that page from as many other relevant sites and e-mail the page link to all my orchid friends.

The map project is pretty informative. Of the 9 listed orchid societies within 200 miles of my zip code only 3 have their upcoming presentations posted on their website. 2 societies have outdated presentations on their site and 4 societies have no upcoming presentations on their site. I guess orchid societies are under the impression that orchid growers are not motivated by presentations to attend orchid society meetings.

In terms of the map allowing people to find the orchid society nearest to them...I have no info. In terms of people abusing how easy it is to update/add info...so far no abuse. Actually, I think that only one other person has updated/added a show/society. Then again, I've only posted the map page in 3 orchid forums and relatively few orchid society members participate in orchid forums.

[Kentucky]

"I guess orchid societies are under the impression that orchid growers are not motivated by presentations to attend orchid society meetings."

".....relatively few orchid society members participate in orchid forums."

You think so ?

[epiphyte]

Originally Posted by Kentucky

"I guess orchid societies are under the impression that orchid growers are not motivated by presentations to attend orchid society meetings."

".....relatively few orchid society members participate in orchid forums."

You think so ?

Regarding the first statement...perhaps there are other explanations why so few societies take the time to post their upcoming presentations on their website. Maybe their webmasters are on vacation? When I asked one society why they don't bother posting their upcoming presentations on their website they said that sometimes they don't know what their presentation will be right up until a few days before their meeting.

Regarding the second statement...only one other member of my orchid society participates in orchid forums. I'd say a 2% participation rate would be a generous estimate. It would be interesting to know which orchid society has the most members that are at least members of orchid forums. Perhaps that should be a new AOS award category.

[virgil]

I think the only way you are going to learn to grow orchids, Is by doing it, I have lost my share , I try to keep my green house above 50% but it does drop to as low as 40% some times, As to Orchid Societys, I really like them , it gives you the chance to meet more experienced growers and learn their ways of growing in your area, Besides if one dies it makes room for another one,

[bswanson]

Originally Posted by virgil

I think the only way you are going to learn to grow orchids, Is by doing it, I have lost my share , I try to keep my green house above 50% but it does drop to as low as 40% some times, As to Orchid Societys, I really like them , it gives you the chance to meet more experienced growers and learn their ways of growing in your area, Besides if one dies it makes room for another one,

I hope you are talking about orchids and not society members